debate: unions, corporations, & related matters

  • avatar
    • 6 months 12 minutes ago
    • Posts: 2117
    To continue a discussion that began in thread about Hostess bankruptcy. bassman21 and I have got into it again about the way things are and the way they should be. We were getting pretty off-topic per vkimo, so at bassman's suggestion I am willing to continue here. Below I will respond approximately point by point to bassman's most recent OT reply in that thread (11th reply on page 2).

    If any other posters are interested in this topic go ahead and reply.
    tangspot2 wrote:
    Mrs. stake you say some nasty on my threads. Dirty bitch
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  • avatar
    • 6 months 11 minutes ago
    • Posts: 2117
    To cut down on huge quote trains, I have excerpted salient points from what bassman wrote. Those are in bold.

    "Private sector unions are OK, but I don't think anyone should be forced to join a union."
    Hm I can understand that. I didn't want to join the union when I was 18. But that is exactly why participation is compulsory. Somebody doesn't see the benefit to them, until it's too late. If it weren't for unions (even though you are not in one) then you would be in your cubicle 15 hours a day with no breaks and make $3 an hour and have no sick time and a one day weekend. Because if you didn't, as you say somebody else would be happy to come and take your job. Maybe the company you work for is nice and would give you $10 instead of 3 but the next one over would not. Everybody needs quality of life.

    "Business will comply to a degree, but they reach a point where its just more cost effective to move elsewhere leaving everyone out of a job. Unions can be a good thing, but they can and do go too far."
    If a company decides they want to move operations elsewhere then I think they should be forced to move market as well. If Ford leaves Detroit for China then Ford cars shouldn't be allowed to come into this country from China. Can you explain to me what is bad about this idea? (Kia or Chevy can't come in from overseas, either.)

    "You can hire workers in a none union state to do the same work for $8 an hour which the competitor is probably already doing. This is why Hostess can't stay profitable. Sorry but until the general public is willing pay $5 for a package of Ding Dongs what you want never work."
    If the general public makes more than $8 an hour, maybe they would be willing. A rising tide lifts all boats and the small boats will be affected first. I think I am talking about advancing society, and you are about maintaining the status quo and hoping that companies will do right. They have no incentive to do so, and the status quo is not good right now. Letting companies do whatever they want has caused major problems with this country and many parts of the world.

    As for going too far, this is pot and kettle. Most larger companies in the world will go too far if they can get away with it. This Hostess story is a perfect example.

    "Again what the CEO get paid becomes pocket change when you spread it out to the employees."
    See but no matter how insignificant, taking more while saying others get less or we close is not going to go over well. I don't care if it's one thousand dollars. You don't put a pay cut on somebody else while taking a raise for yourself. If the company is not doing well then the CEO is not doing a good job and does not really deserve a raise.

    "The company is to blame, but I think the unions are too. It just doesn't seem right that a union can shut a whole operation down because a company doesn't want to meet their demands."
    That is the point of unions. When the operation won't listen to anything else, yeah that's when a shutdown might happen. If they negotiate with respect for their operators and honor agreements then there's no reason to worry about it. As I was implying at first in the Hostess thread, a corporation is individuals grouped together to act as one body in pursuit of their own interests (profit). A union is also individuals grouped together to act as one body in pursuit of their own interests (decent compensation for working their lives for the profits). If they can't get along then there is a problem with the company. If there is no union there are many cases where abuse of workers will occur, is occurring today in America and abroad. Not in your company or mine fortunately, but many others and many of the biggest employers.

    "I agree the same CEO should not have gotten that big of a raise if the employees are getting cuts, but the cuts are needed to save the company."
    Then...the CEO should take cuts too. Do they care about the company, apparently not. Only their own wallet. You are trying to defend a company's actions when they won't even do it themselves. When this came to light, the raises were rescinded. Only because they "got caught".

    "I used to be right with you when I was younger stake n shake. It all sounds good in theory, but it just doesn't work in practice."
    Please tell me what does work in practice, with examples. Texas being right to work, I see that you feel that works. But things are slightly better there than elsewhere. Doesn't mean things are good. As I have said, with quotes, links, and historical data to back it up, what fixes the economy is more govt revenue and more money for the lower members of society. A chain is only as strong as its weakest link.
    tangspot2 wrote:
    Mrs. stake you say some nasty on my threads. Dirty bitch
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  • avatar
    • 5 months 26 days ago
    • Posts: 12790
    • User Admin
    Sorry for the delay, I've had a busy week. Unfortunately not many people check the user forums anymore. Without the "new post" its a pain in the ass browsing each of them.

    Like I said unions in theory are not necessarily a bad thing, but the corruption and bullying has turned most away. Union membership didn't spike until the 1930s. By then work conditions were already improving. Unions have been on the decline since the 50s and conditions have continued to improve without collective bargaining by them. Its silly to think that we would still have those work conditions today if it wasn't for the unions. Most companies have a human resources department that will address any legitimate concerns. We also have our legal system to help protect employee rights. If a company wants to keep quality employees they will treat them right. Each generation demands more from their employers. At best you can argue that there was once a need for unions, but they are not really needed anymore.

    Free trade is what has made the USA the wealthy nation it is today. It brought countries like China (Hong Kong) from being poor 3rd world countries to becoming wealthy nations. Messing with it would be catastrophic to ours and others economy. Most of the jobs that go overseas are low paying, low skill jobs that most don't want to do. It lowers the price of our products and give people who would otherwise be starving in the streets money. As their quality of life improves so will their work conditions. Just like ours did! Free trade also improves our relationship with other countries. China will never attack us as long as we are making them wealthy. While we import products from other countries we also export many which creates jobs for us.

    You're caught up in the world of theory. Everything you want to do sounds great, but it has unintended consequences. You can't micro manage people regardless if they are employees or businesses. Some large companies might be able to handle the regulations, but the smaller ones are the ones that will suffer. The last thing we need is fewer small businesses and more people working for big companies. We want more of the little guys creating big companies. These companies create more jobs. Yes some of them will go overseas, but the economic growth will make up for them.

    One more thing on unions and I'm calling it a night. Look up the documentary "Waiting for Superman". It shows how teachers unions are hurting the students. The unions make it almost impossible to fire bad teachers. Good and bad teachers get paid the same, yet the USA is behind many other countries in education.
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  • avatar
    • 5 months 24 days ago
    • Posts: 2117
    bassman21 wrote:
    You're caught up in the world of theory. Everything you want to do sounds great, but it has unintended consequences.

    No, I consider the consequences very carefully. I have said multiple times to the effect of 'this would take time to implement.' To put things such as I say in place tomorrow would be foolish. Same as any major change. I write of goals. If we disagree on those, indepth discussion of timeline is irrelevant.

    Now whether I am grounded in theory, I have to say we have been watching facts over recent years. Laissez faire helps top earners and few others. Looking at historical data, high tax on top earners and govt spending on infrastructure correlate with good economy and it makes sense for that to happen.

    ----------------------
    I have written here before about why unions are still needed. To quickly repeat some examples: - Shortly before the teachers' strike in Chicago a good teacher at a charter school was fired for doing the right thing. - Amazon and Walmart are two examples of companies that treat their employees terribly. Employees there often get worked to exhaustion, have no benefits, etc. I'm not even talking about health care or cost of living increase. Just some knowledge that they can take a sick day without worrying about getting fired. These are real things that happen in modern times. I am not under the thumb of a cruel employer. Some are. Unions would protect them.

    Each generation demanding more. It may be a higher dollar amount with inflation but the number of people who can, say, buy a house, is down. Most industries no longer offer pensions etc. Such demand does not exist in the large. Only union fields have that. I think it is a good thing. We all want a nice high quality of life and I don't begrudge the people who get it even if I don't.

    Free trade: Believe me, I have struggled with ideas for how to handle things in this area. But I am very worried about the effects it is having now. Are cheap Chinese goods really helping us? Helping other countries attain wealth sounds nice but I don't see it helping this country at all.

    The skies in China are black from pollution and the air is poisonous so the ruling class can get the wealth, while workers commit suicide if they don't work to death or fall terminally ill from breathing the air off of smelting. A country is not a simple, single entity. Just because it may hold money, does not mean that the people who live there see any benefit of it. I'd wager the general Chinese population are worse off than 100 years ago. How long will it take for their working conditions to improve?

    We are more disposable than ever. And I'm sure it sounds awesome that we only give them low-skill jobs but do I am skeptical there can be enough high skill jobs to employ every able American, especially without manufacturing? I'm not sure what kind of education is needed for the not-low skill jobs that remain, but I know I don't have it, and most places that pay well don't provide on-the-job training.

    The long-term effects of free trade have been, and will continue to be, worse than TVs having price tag two or three or four times what they do now. That's the theory that catches me up. What can be done about it? Just sit around and hope that more [good, permanent] jobs will someday appear how? I don't have that kind of faith. I do agree more small businesses are needed. The same kind of small businesses that have been closing all around the country for the past few decades, as encouraged by free market principles (big company juggernauts). I am all for capitalism and allowing ideas to grow. Now ideas are stifled by capitalism. I'm also for quality service from employees who wear knowledge of their products instead of aprons. It's nice that we can have cheap goods if we want them, but when the market doesn't have room for quality, wages stagnate and jobs dwindle. Retail jobs that people used to hold for decades (hardware store) now hire high school kids who don't know their ass from a hole in the ground (Home Depot). If you don't believe this then why do we even have this conversation, there would not be a problem to talk about.
    tangspot2 wrote:
    Mrs. stake you say some nasty on my threads. Dirty bitch
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  • avatar
    • 5 months 24 days ago
    • Posts: 2117
    I don't want small businesses to be over-regulated. Big ones. Not sure where the line is. But for let's say that a company with fewer than ten locations and a median salary of under $80k is not the kind of place I'm talking about restricting. Or maybe we should say that importing is restricted to $250,000 retail per year. Something like that. I just want to stop big box stores and chains from profiting on the destruction of our domestic industry. If Joe Shmoe who owns three restaurants wants to import $250k worth per year of hamburger meat that's fine but maybe McDonalds doesn't need to import more than that. They claim to need import because US beef is not lean enough, since it is fed on corn instead of grass. Hey want to cut govt spending? How about stop subsidizing ConAgra and Archer Daniels Midland!

    Anyway China puts tariffs on US goods ("currency manipulation";) I don't see why it would be so bad for USA to put tariffs on their stuff.

    We export OK, could do better but it's not horrible. I did a little research here and it is a lot more than I thought. Mostly intellectual property stuff and services (like consulting). I don't think that makes many jobs but the dollar amount that comes into this country from exports is about 75% of what is imported here. I think consumer goods, like small business, is what we need to fix the economy. Pfizer licensing V1@g(R)@ formula to other companies, whether they are in USA or not, does not net create many new jobs here. Maybe another CEO raise (which is fine if the company is not filing bankruptcy) which will go into offshore accounts so the govt doesn't get its dirty hands on it.

    I will watch "Waiting for Superman" documentary if you watch Wal-Mart: The High Cost of Low Price. I've previously referred you to many articles that require less than two hours commitment, I have never seen you reply to them. I don't know what part of the country Waiting for Superman takes place in, but in my town top performing schools (by ISAT measure) are unionized schools. No non-union schools appear until 41st place. And that is with the public school money getting taken away for downtown construction by tax increment financing, lol. It just doesn't measure up to the "protecting bad teachers" myth that anti-union faction keeps repeating.

    Founding fathers on corporate freedom: Thomas Jefferson: We wanted to "crush in [America's] birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." James Madison: "Incorporated companies with proper limitations and guards may, in particular cases, be useful; but they are at best a necessary evil only."
    We have strayed far from these words of guidance because money is power and we decided to stop placing checks on it in the name of freedom for fat cats who need no such protection.
    tangspot2 wrote:
    Mrs. stake you say some nasty on my threads. Dirty bitch
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  • avatar
    • 5 months 14 days ago
    • Posts: 13256
    • User Mod
    Much of what's being stated here reminds me of something I heard from the American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC); laws that have the most impact on labor and free-enterprise are at the State and Local level.

    Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker, as well as many officials around the country, focus as much attention as possible on local legislation that de-powers labor unions in favor of business-friendly proposals.

    While I personally like the idea of fairness in all aspects of life, I've learned that business interests never take a holiday when it comes pushing their ideas on commerce vs. the public. Many workers have found, to their horror, that labor laws are tilted in favor of business. Our rights as workers are very limited and are being scaled back in State legislatures far too often.

    It pains me to say this but our elected officials rarely operate in the best interest of ordinary citizens. Just ask all the former Hostess workers who had the rug pulled from under them.
    The Eldorado is dead. Long live the Eldorado.
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  • avatar
    • 5 months 7 days ago
    • Posts: 2117
    This comes from Bruce Bartlett, a supply-side economist and former Reagan adviser. It really sounds good to me. Of course, I am not one to be all caught up in theory, so I would like deep investigation into all of the effects we could expect before attempting this reform. As he says, it would take a long time. That doesn't mean we should do nothing.


    Bruce Bartlett wrote:

    The seemingly simple term "income" has become extraordinarily difficult to define for tax purposes. In the days when most people had only two sources of income--wages or pensions--figuring out how it should be taxedwas easy. But today, million of people have untaxable income inside individual retirement accounts or 401(k)s; they have income that that is exempt from taxation in the form of employer-provided health benefits and interest on municipal bonds; and they have income such as dividends or capital gains that is taxed very differently from wages or business income. And the corporate side of tax code is virtually unadministrable. The tax departments of major corporations such as GE have become profit centers and find more and more creative ways to legally avoid paying any taxes at all. The result, inevitably, is higher federal deficits or higher taxes on individuals less adept at tax avoidance.


    God damn, I don't know how anyone could disagree with that. It's fact. The only opinion here is whether that is OK or not. I say it's not. Continuing:

    Bruce Bartlett wrote:

    Clearly, a key problem with tax code is conceptual, and it has to do with what constitutes the tax base. This is not a problem that can be fixed by redesigning tax forms or providing clearer instructions...it requires a deep rethinking of the nature of taxation. For 100 years, taxation has been based on income.

    Today, income is just too slippery a concept to form the basis of taxation. It is too mobile, to hard to locate geographically, to easily redefined into different forms or masked in various financial structures. Instead, taxes inevitably have to fall more heavily on things that are easier to define and locate, and that are unable to escape the tax collector.

    The two tax bases that are best suited to the current economic environment are consumption and and real property. The bulk of consumption consists of services that cannot be outsourced or automated; you can't go to China for a haircut. And of course land and buildings can be easily located and taxed.

    Moving from an income tax system to one based on consumption and property will be painful, complicated, difficult, politically contentious and time-consuming. It will probably take decades. But unless tax specialists--the theorists and administrators and experrts--make some breakthrough in figuring out how to make the income tax work equitably and raise enough revenue to pay the government's bills, this sort of tax reform appears inevitable.


    Amen.
    tangspot2 wrote:
    Mrs. stake you say some nasty on my threads. Dirty bitch
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