Liberal vs. Conservative

Its the fact that our government recognizes them as a couple. It is still in some form or fashion approving of the relationship.

That's right. I could care less what a woman does to her body, but when the life of a child is in the picture that goes out the window. Women have a gift to make a life (with a man's help). The problem is people don't really get that. They don't see it as a child till it is born. However like I said before you already started the process, stopping it is murder.

If I went back in time and convinced your mother to have an abortion, wouldn't I be a murder?

By this point it is more than just an egg.

Personally I think that people want to push "women's rights" so much that they will believe anything to have their way. I am all for women's rights, but not at the expense of others rights.

We're on common ground here, i am all for a fetus' rights but not at the expense of the mother.

And that's bad because it goes against the bible?

So? It's ok to abort up until it looks cute?

Well yes, but its completely unnatural. The only reason you think its ok is b/c you have heard from elementary age that its natural and ok and blah blah blah. Should we legalize any relationship just b/c an individual is in love? Thats the main argument that I hear. "What's wrong with two people loving one another?" By that logic lets legalize any form of sexual perversion and recognize the individuals as a couple... Bestiality, pedophilia, etc...

However in the long run people would be forced to do more to avoid getting pregnant in the first place.

That argument uses NO logic though. Think about it, two men wanting to be married is no better or worse to you than a man marrying a dog? Come on. How would a dog sign marriage papers or say their vows? We're talking about two consenting people of legal age, let's not invent crazy scenarios in an effort to trivialize it.

Homosexuality is more natural than you give it credit for. It has been occuring in people and animals since the beginning of time. The only reason you think it is unnatural is because you have heard since childhood that homosexuality is wrong. (i believe it is in Leviticus where it states that homos should be put to death)

EDIT" I shouldn't say it contains "no logic" since you're a logical person but it's a very spurious argument.

But you just said you didn't want to argue theoreticals.

For example, the idea that a lack of access to abortions would curb sex has failed miserably in Africa. Now look at them, some countries have an AIDS infection rate of almost 30% and children are slowly starving to death along with their mothers, but hey, our consciences are clean because we didn't want them to get abortions, so we win!

They also don't have access to contraceptives that we do.

I don't support an all out ban on abortion, but I don't think we should be saying it's OK. A human life is something we all should take seriously and abortion should be a last resort. Even in the case of rape many women go on to have the child and have no regrets. I have known several girls that had an abortion and all but one wished they never did it. At the very least we should let women know all their options before going through with it. One thing I found is there is often someone telling them they should abort it, usually the man that doesn't want to pay child support or a feminist friend.

If they wished they never did it, then that in itself could be used as an educational tool, rather than using the sanctity of life argument, which is hypocritical since we all have someone we could think of who could die without us caring.

Africans not having access to contraceptives is the exact argument i was making. They don't have the access to birth control and abortions, but the lack of facilities hasn't stopped them from making babies like you said it might.

Homosexuality is more natural than you give it credit for. It has been occuring in people and animals since the beginning of time. The only reason you think it is unnatural is because you have heard since childhood that homosexuality is wrong.

The only reason you fail to see the logic is b/c you accept the lifestyle. Given the fact that homosexuality only occurs in about 1% of the population proves it is unnatural. You also realize that it is not only religious people that see it as unnatural. Also we have moved on from gay marriage. The last you and I were talking about was dealing with the government recognizing homosexuals as couples not a marriage. Personally I see homosexuality, pedophilia and bestiality all as being forms of sexual perversion. They are abnormal. Your argument about how long things have been happening really plays no bearing in this point b/c all forms of perversion have been around for thousands of years. It still doesn't make it right. Here is what scares me: 50 years ago you wouldn't have been arguing about this. The problem with secular morality is that it is constantly changing and rarely if ever for the better. So 50 years from now will our society accept pedophilia as well? There are societies that have.

It's only natural when it is used the way it was intended.

I think bassman was saying that we have plenty of contraceptives available and that people would start using them rather than using abortion as a form of birth control. I am guessing your average villager in Africa doesn't have the access that we do to contraceptives.

Well, if homosexuality's rarity in the face of common marriages means it is unnatural, then that means being left-handed is unnatural too?

50 years ago we might also have been bitching about how black people should always ride at the back of the bus.

My point was that the lack of contraceptives available hasn't stopped them from having sex. Just as a lack of availability of abortions wouldn't necessarily cause people to use condoms if they weren't going to to begin with.