Deism

Ilikethepixies 3 years 11 months ago Posts: 6779 Banned User Mod	Questions for my self-proclaimed deist friends: Do you feel alone in the universe? That is to say, if you believe that God made this all up and then let it run its own course, do you feel that he has abandoned you? Also... Does this belief automatically mean that you believe in fate over free-will? To me, it seems like saying that God set up the whole system, and you being a part of the system... that means that your actions have been predetermined by God and you are just playing them out. Therefore, you would have no free will. I'm not trying to condemn or coerce anyone, I'm just curious of the deist view of the world.

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Kriller 3 years 11 months ago Posts: 1379	Hey man, this is an amazing question, because this is the question that separates most. Based off what I believe, and what the Bible concludes. The world was made with God being all - knowing. So in the, unnecessary, battle of free will vs. God being all - knowing, most either resume that it is a contradiction(though both are actually hand in hand in the Bible) or that people were predestined to go to Heaven or Hell, that God just chose those who would continue their fate. However, I just want to say God does not predestine ANYONE. Some verses are twisted by people to say so, but it is actually the other way around. Yes, God saw who would make it to Heaven before He created us, but He did not decide who He wanted there. He saw who would be there based on their OWN decisions. He does not create their free will choices, He has the foreknowledge.
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ImAllTheRage 3 years 11 months ago Posts: 2683 Account Disabled	I wouldn't call it abandonment. We were created and given the Earth as our home. What we do with it and ourselves, for good or ill, is entirely up to us. I don't believe in divine intervention, and I don't believe in miracles. As for the argument of "fate vs. free-will", I'd call Deism the ultimate expression of free-will: A God that allows us to rise and fall by our own merits, and doesn't interfere.

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PirateNinja6 3 years 11 months ago Posts: 3096 Banned User Admin	Ilikethepixies wrote: Questions for my self-proclaimed deist friends: Do you feel alone in the universe? That is to say, if you believe that God made this all up and then let it run its own course, do you feel that he has abandoned you? Also... Does this belief automatically mean that you believe in fate over free-will? To me, it seems like saying that God set up the whole system, and you being a part of the system... that means that your actions have been predetermined by God and you are just playing them out. Therefore, you would have no free will. I'm not trying to condemn or coerce anyone, I'm just curious of the deist view of the world. Deism is where God doesn't a give a flying fuck, I don't believe he has set some fate for me, he left us here to decide for our own.

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Ilikethepixies
3 years 11 months ago
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Do all beings have free will or just humans?
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ImAllTheRage
3 years 11 months ago
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Ilikethepixies wrote:
Do all beings have free will or just humans?

All beings.
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Ilikethepixies
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Protozoa? Jellyfish?
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Kriller 3 years 11 months ago Posts: 1379	No man. This is only meant for the people of the Earth. As mad as PETA may get, frankly, when animals die they die, but when we die we have a purpose.
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ImAllTheRage 3 years 11 months ago Posts: 2683 Account Disabled	Ilikethepixies wrote: Protozoa? Jellyfish? Well... good question. Both of those are basically creatures of pure instinct. They can't reason, they can't make judgements... so they're pretty much incapable of making any kind of choice. I guess my answer would be "Yes, all living creatures have free will, but not all of them have the basic intelligence to recognize it".

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Ilikethepixies 3 years 11 months ago Posts: 6779 Banned User Mod	I'm not sure if we have free will or not. I debate it over and over with myself sometimes if I have nothing to do. It just seems like at some point the free will argument breaks down. You can take it to the molecular level... when life is at its most basic, like a virus that we can completely map out its molecular structure... Where do we draw the line? If we are to say that a virus is a living creature in that it reproduces, evolves as populations and has genetic information... yet acts in ways that are completely describable through organic chemistry, is that really free will? And if viruses (or is it "viri"?) don't have free will and we admit that they are just organized molecules taking part in complex chemical reactions, where do we draw the line? In evolutionary biology, nothing is cut and dry... there is always a spectrum. Thus, I can't say that we are any different than a virus on a fundamental level. Therefore, do we have free will? I think my argument shows some logic behind saying "nope!"

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Kriller 3 years 11 months ago Posts: 1379	Ilikethepixies wrote: I'm not sure if we have free will or not. I debate it over and over with myself sometimes if I have nothing to do. It just seems like at some point the free will argument breaks down. You can take it to the molecular level... when life is at its most basic, like a virus that we can completely map out its molecular structure... Where do we draw the line? If we are to say that a virus is a living creature in that it reproduces, evolves as populations and has genetic information... yet acts in ways that are completely describable through organic chemistry, is that really free will? And if viruses (or is it "viri"?) don't have free will and we admit that they are just organized molecules taking part in complex chemical reactions, where do we draw the line? In evolutionary biology, nothing is cut and dry... there is always a spectrum. Thus, I can't say that we are any different than a virus on a fundamental level. Therefore, do we have free will? I think my argument shows some logic behind saying "nope!" Hey man, I know you may not be the person who would care about what the bible says. But from what I have based on life, God explains in Exodus how, the trees, and the animals and the bacteria that dwell with them will surely die and be dead. But man on earth has a purpose has a meaning in life. Take that as you will my friend.
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nippy 3 years 11 months ago Posts: 3100 Account Disabled	Kriller wrote: Ilikethepixies wrote: I'm not sure if we have free will or not. I debate it over and over with myself sometimes if I have nothing to do. It just seems like at some point the free will argument breaks down. You can take it to the molecular level... when life is at its most basic, like a virus that we can completely map out its molecular structure... Where do we draw the line? If we are to say that a virus is a living creature in that it reproduces, evolves as populations and has genetic information... yet acts in ways that are completely describable through organic chemistry, is that really free will? And if viruses (or is it "viri"?) don't have free will and we admit that they are just organized molecules taking part in complex chemical reactions, where do we draw the line? In evolutionary biology, nothing is cut and dry... there is always a spectrum. Thus, I can't say that we are any different than a virus on a fundamental level. Therefore, do we have free will? I think my argument shows some logic behind saying "nope!" Hey man, I know you may not be the person who would care about what the bible says. But from what I have based on life, God explains in Exodus how, the trees, and the animals and the bacteria that dwell with them will surely die and be dead. But man on earth has a purpose has a meaning in life. Take that as you will my friend. haha. Exodus.

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PirateNinja6 3 years 11 months ago Posts: 3096 Banned User Admin	Ilikethepixies wrote: Protozoa? Jellyfish? I believe they do, but like Rage Man said, they don't have the proper intelligence to know it. Most animals aren't even self-aware.

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Ilikethepixies 3 years 11 months ago Posts: 6779 Banned User Mod	What about gorillas or dolphins or pigs... animals that are really smart. I mean, if gorillas can learn sign language, certainly they should be able to make a decision.

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ImAllTheRage 3 years 11 months ago Posts: 2683 Account Disabled	Ilikethepixies wrote: What about gorillas or dolphins or pigs... animals that are really smart. I mean, if gorillas can learn sign language, certainly they should be able to make a decision. All of the animals you mentioned are capable of reason. If a gorilla touches a hot stove, it'll get burned. If it touches it enough, it'll eventually learn that the pain is related to the stove. If a jellyfish touches a hot stove, it'll get burned too, but it won't stop because it's intellectually incapable of recognizing pain or relating that pain to any one stimuli.

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Ilikethepixies 3 years 11 months ago Posts: 6779 Banned User Mod	That's not free will though. That's an organized system of molecules practicing self-preservation.

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ImAllTheRage 3 years 11 months ago Posts: 2683 Account Disabled	Ilikethepixies wrote: That's not free will though. That's an organized system of molecules practicing self-preservation. I disagree. Using your example, there wouldn't be anyone who's into bondage and S & M, because their brains and minds would automatically make them steer clear of pain. People choose to suffer that pain because they enjoy it. It goes back to the argument of intelligence: man's intelligence vs. an animal's.

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Ilikethepixies 3 years 11 months ago Posts: 6779 Banned User Mod	You bring up a good point, but perhaps pain and sex are interwoven into the brain. I wish I knew more about that stuff so I could show some proof, but I think that in nature, sex has a lot of pain involved in it. Its all part of a primal urge... you ever watch animals rut in the wild? I do (a LOT) and its all basically rape... very brutal out there you know. Lots of pain all around. So I don't think that it necessarily means that my argument is invalid. It is a good point though. Maybe there is a certain part of us that wants to self-destruct.

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ImAllTheRage 3 years 11 months ago Posts: 2683 Account Disabled	Ilikethepixies wrote: You bring up a good point, but perhaps pain and sex are interwoven into the brain. I wish I knew more about that stuff so I could show some proof, but I think that in nature, sex has a lot of pain involved in it. Its all part of a primal urge... you ever watch animals rut in the wild? I do (a LOT) and its all basically rape... very brutal out there you know. Lots of pain all around. So I don't think that it necessarily means that my argument is invalid. It is a good point though. Maybe there is a certain part of us that wants to self-destruct. Oh, I wasn't saying that your argument was invalid. When it comes to something as intangible as free will, any and all arguments are valid. And you're right, psychologically, pain and sex are pretty closely related. I also agree that we, as a people, do have a desire for self-destruction. It's as inherent in us as the instinct for self-preservation is in a pack of wolves. I don't know why this is. Maybe as a species, we're just bored with existing. There's still plenty of stuff to do and discover in the world, but we lack the motivation to do anything about it. Human beings aren't nearly as driven as they were during the ancient Greek and Roman periods, the 1700s, or even the '50s and '60s. We're less concerned about breeding new Einsteins and Socrates's than we are about breeding new AVGNs and Next Top Models.

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Ilikethepixies 3 years 11 months ago Posts: 6779 Banned User Mod	Wow, I totally agree with you. I think its because we've transcended a species' traditional place in their ecosystem. For example, our weak, ill, dumb and deformed are taken care of and sometimes reproduce. This means that the "survival of the fittest" rule is thrown out. Everyone that can possibly survive does (except in 3rd world countries). This means that we are not becoming a more fit species as we evolve, but are instead stagnating. Also, our laws, morals and customs prevent rape which is an essential part of most species' mating. In nature, if you can hold 'em down long enough to diddle 'em, then that's what you do. This means that the most "fit" women aren't having the most kids, which is what should happen ecologically. Thirdly (is that a word?), our technology has evolved so much quicker than our physical evolution that we simply can't keep up. I'm pretty sure that our bodies were not meant to be kept inside and away from physical labor and natural light. I think that's why so many people are so depressed. Finally, in the "first world", we have all of our basic necessities taken care of for us. We don't have to figure out how to grow our own food or hunt down game or build a hut out of sticks... its all just... there. So we don't have to use any ingenuity or creativity. Its a laziness we all suffer from. Well, most of us. I know I do. Thus, art and self-expression loses its "oomph". I think that most really good art (or anything creative for that matter) comes from people at the end of their rope in one way or another. That might explain why so many good artists, writers and musicians are crazy or chemically dependent. Its like when we lose that "life or death" immediacy, the art also suffers. I don't think it touches that mysterious primal parts of our brains. Perhaps that's why Picasso's painting of the guitar player or Vincent Van Gogh's painting of a starry night resonates so greatly and why AVGN will be forgotten in 5 years.

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Ilikethepixies 3 years 11 months ago Posts: 6779 Banned User Mod	Do all beings have free will or just humans?

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ImAllTheRage 3 years 11 months ago Posts: 2683 Account Disabled	Ilikethepixies wrote: Do all beings have free will or just humans? All beings.

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Ilikethepixies 3 years 11 months ago Posts: 6779 Banned User Mod	Protozoa? Jellyfish?

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